Probably Beating a Dead Horse, but... Cams?

CaddyCrosley

CaddyCrosley

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I am trying to make a decision as far as what cam to run in my (what I was hoping was a 500 but have now verified it as a) 472 build. I want some lump, enough oomph to fill up 5" side pipes.

It is a low-budget build, per my lady's request lol. Nothing crazy (no KB pistons, cylinders just honed to get rid of ring ridge and not bored out, no single-plane intake, etc...). Just rings, gasket set, bearings, maybe spend a little time with a Dremel in the ports. Not much room in the budget for new valve springs, if I can help it, but if it's a necessity, I can come up with some extra cash.

So, with that being said, I'm looking at a couple options.

The MTS #10EZ cam.
RPM range: 1,200 - 4,800
Advertised duration range: 276-285*
Duration @ .050” range: 224*
Valve lift range: .465-476”.

The other one I have my eye on is the Comp Cams CL94-600-5.
Advertised Duration 278 int/296 exh, Lift .503 int/.490 exh.
Basic Operating RPM Range: 2,000-5,800
Duration at .050 inch Lift: 226 int./241 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees): 107

The MTS cam set is $80 more than the Comp.

I was also considering the Howards Street Force, but lift is .517... is that too much?

Basically, what is my best bet here? How much lift is too much? At what point do I need stronger valve springs? And what valve seals should I use?

Thanks guys!
 
Please, don't make me have to go back to see what this engine is going into. What is the weight of that vehicle and what is the attitude where you live?

d
 
Darius said:
Please, don't make me have to go back to see what this engine is going into. What is the weight of that vehicle and what is the attitude where you live?

d
Click to expand...

Lol, I won't make you scour my previous posts. It's going into a rat rod, Crosley body on a modified D350 chassis. Will weigh (by my estimates) around 2500 lbs, with fuel and driver/passenger. I'm at 1,500 ft of altitude.
 
[QUOTE="CaddyCrosley, post: 196529, member: 4584" ]Lol, I won't make you scour my previous posts. It's going into a rat rod, Crosley body on a modified D350 chassis. Will weigh (by my estimates) around 2500 lbs, with fuel and driver/passenger. I'm at 1,500 ft of altitude.[/QUOTE]

Thank you.

With that light weight and low altitude you can be much more aggressive with the cam. There will be more than enough low end torque to make your ride very interesting. The issue then becomes the very items you've brought up: the camshaft and valve springs. Tell you what, you pony up for the camshaft, listen to Dave and 8ad-F85 for their suggestions on the profile, and I’ll buy you the new valve springs. Will that work? :) I was a broke college student once. Come to think of it, I was a lot of things – once. :(

d
 
The 10 EZ cam might be listed as working with stock springs, but realize that yours are 40+ years old. New stock spring spec is 65 lbs seat, iirc! The stock seals [glued to retainer] would be fine if you really want to use stock springs. On the subject, you could use a minus .050" or .060" lock and get a few more lbs of force with stockers, as long as you have .100" left at full lift. I don't like shims, use only black [hard] ones if you use any. Stock style seals will come in most gasket kits, but you can buy them separately.

For umbrellas, you can use generics, but make sure that you have enough clearance inside the spring. You can also cut the guides for positive type, but stock guide boss often will not clean up at .530", and .500" scares me on stock guides.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-SBF-CHE...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

On comp cams, realize that they use 1.72-1 to calc lift, so assuming 1.65-1 for stock rockers, the 94-600-5 would be .483"/.470". I can't believe that I'm saying this, but if you don't care about loosing a few lbs-ft of torque esp at low rpm, the thumper cam would work ok. The comp 270 [306-5] is almost $30 cheaper than the 600-5 at summit, would probably outrun it, but it would not give you the thump at idle that you seem to want. .490" lift on that with 1.65-1.

I prefer a stock lifter [969] with the line apx 1/4" up from the bottom, which is said to be a stellite foot spun welded on. I've bought them at autozone, melling, but their price went way up. Comp's 869s are as such, and probably reboxed 969 melling.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melling-OE-...ash=item25d680bb0c:g:1W4AAOSw-3FZFLe6&vxp=mtr

Imo, the GM beehives are the best bet for stock. Around $135 foe springs, retainers and locks. The guide boss must be modified, a 1" hole saw works just fine. You can find sbc straight springs that'll work, but you need to get 1.800" tall version, they'll work with no machine work, but probably need -.050" locks.

https://cadillacpower.com/threads/value-priced-beehive-valve-springs.8224/

Use plain cast rings. I would use sealed power / Federal mogul bearings for your use, not clevite. Victor gaskets are fine for you. The stock tin intake gasket is best for you imo.
http://www.northernautoparts.com/part/ek-er1245


Dave
 
dave brode said:
The 10 EZ cam might be listed as working with stock springs, but realize that yours are 40+ years old. New stock spring spec is 65 lbs seat, iirc! The stock seals [glued to retainer] would be fine if you really want to use stock springs. On the subject, you could use a minus .050" or .060" lock and get a few more lbs of force with stockers, as long as you have .100" left at full lift. I don't like shims, use only black [hard] ones if you use any. Stock style seals will come in most gasket kits, but you can buy them separately.

For umbrellas, you can use generics, but make sure that you have enough clearance inside the spring. You can also cut the guides for positive type, but stock guide boss often will not clean up at .530", and .500" scares me on stock guides.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-SBF-CHEVY-Viton-Umbrella-Style-Valve-Stem-Seals-Chevy-Ford-11-32-Valves/262113554239?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

On comp cams, realize that they use 1.72-1 to calc lift, so assuming 1.65-1 for stock rockers, the 94-600-5 would be .483"/.470". I can't believe that I'm saying this, but if you don't care about loosing a few lbs-ft of torque esp at low rpm, the thumper cam would work ok. The comp 270 [306-5] is almost $30 cheaper than the 600-5 at summit, would probably outrun it, but it would not give you the thump at idle that you seem to want. .490" lift on that with 1.65-1.

I prefer a stock lifter [969] with the line apx 1/4" up from the bottom, which is said to be a stellite foot spun welded on. I've bought them at autozone, melling, but their price went way up. Comp's 869s are as such, and probably reboxed 969 melling.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melling-OE-...ash=item25d680bb0c:g:1W4AAOSw-3FZFLe6&vxp=mtr

Imo, the GM beehives are the best bet for stock. Around $135 foe springs, retainers and locks. The guide boss must be modified, a 1" hole saw works just fine. You can find sbc straight springs that'll work, but you need to get 1.800" tall version, they'll work with no machine work, but probably need -.050" locks.

https://cadillacpower.com/threads/value-priced-beehive-valve-springs.8224/

Use plain cast rings. I would use sealed power / Federal mogul bearings for your use, not clevite. Victor gaskets are fine for you. The stock tin intake gasket is best for you imo.
http://www.northernautoparts.com/part/ek-er1245


Dave
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "losing a few lb-ft of torque?" As in, less than factory? I'd like to run the 270, but, I was looking at cam + lifter kits, not just cams, and it's $30 more for the kit - and, from what I understand, I'd definitely need different valve springs?

So, if I retain the stock springs, and use different locks or shim them to bring seat psi back up to factory spec, I can use the Thumpr? Use stock valve seals, the rings/bearings/gaskets you mentioned...

Basically, I'm shooting for moderate power for as cheap as possible... I know it's not the right way to do it, but it's all I have to work with for now. One day down the road, when I have a couple grand to spend, I'd like to revisit the Cad and do everything the right way. Bring up compression, have the heads ported, single plane intake, etc.
 
Okay, hang on. Disregard what I said there lol ^ I put together the 270 (cam only) and a set of 16 Melling 969s, and it's $243. So, with that being said: will I need new valve springs to run this cam? Or can I get away with shimmed factory springs?

Thanks again, I really appreciate all your help!
 
> What do you mean by "losing a few lb-ft of torque?"

My hunch was the thumper would give away some low end torque to the 270. At least some experts claim that a very early exh opening will cause it.

After some thought, I can't recommend shimming the 40 yr old springs, but just for the sake of conversation, you could squeeze a stock spring in a vice and measure it in solid state, and compare it to the stock installed height .

The specs [in a '74 factory manual] are 60-65 lbs at 1.946", and 160-165 at 1.496 [.450"lift]. So, they have a spring rate of 222.222 lbs/in. So, even if you could stack them .100" tighter, you'd still only gain 22.22 lbs
 
My bone stock, 50k mile original 472 showed signs of valve float at speeds near 4400 rpm, even after shimming.
Duration and lift specs don't tell the full story on cam lobes vs. valve spring abuse.
Some of the Comp XE cams for other makes are well known for being difficult to keep the spring under control, even with mild specs.
If someone is offering to send you springs, I'd jump on that.
Maybe use your stock ones for break in only, to assist saving the cam.
 
listen to these guys. They helped me. It sounds like we are both after the same thing. A lite build dependable engine that will be fun to drive. Listen and follow instructions. Ive got a set of stock seals that Dave mentioned. Ill send them too you you pay for the ride. Our good brother D got the springs. so dude you might be on to something here. lol
PM me if you choose that route.
PJ
 
dave brode said:
> What do you mean by "losing a few lb-ft of torque?"

My hunch was the thumper would give away some low end torque to the 270. At least some experts claim that a very early exh opening will cause it.

After some thought, I can't recommend shimming the 40 yr old springs, but just for the sake of conversation, you could squeeze a stock spring in a vice and measure it in solid state, and compare it to the stock installed height .

The specs [in a '74 factory manual] are 60-65 lbs at 1.946", and 160-165 at 1.496 [.450"lift]. So, they have a spring rate of 222.222 lbs/in. So, even if you could stack them .100" tighter, you'd still only gain 22.22 lbs
Click to expand...

I have access to a valve spring tester, I ran a couple three of them in it this morning. Apx. 55 lbs @ 1.946", and 155 lbs @ 1.496". Think I still need to get new ones, or would .015" or .030" shims push them up enough?

Mic'd the crank journals as well, and those look good - factory spec, and not out of round. My engines professor said "run it". Told me to order factory size bearings and rings.

8ad-f85 said:
My bone stock, 50k mile original 472 showed signs of valve float at speeds near 4400 rpm, even after shimming.
Duration and lift specs don't tell the full story on cam lobes vs. valve spring abuse.
Some of the Comp XE cams for other makes are well known for being difficult to keep the spring under control, even with mild specs.
If someone is offering to send you springs, I'd jump on that.
Maybe use your stock ones for break in only, to assist saving the cam.
Click to expand...

What exactly are the signs of valve float? Odd exhaust note, loss of power?
Hopefully going to get to break the engine in on my school's run stand/dyno.

PJ, don't the factory seals usually come in a full gasket set? I'm trying to get my buddy to hook me up with a deal on a full Fel-Pro set, his dad works for them lol.

I should mention, that I'm doing this rebuild as part of my Bachelors Degree study. I attend McPherson College in McPherson, KS, the only school in the world with a four-year program in Automotive Restoration. This is my Advanced Engines class project - we bring in our own stuff to work on. Classmates' projects include a 1908 Cadillac engine (massive single cylinder), Y-block Ford, a couple flathead V8s, and the prerequisite SBC...
 
CaddyCrosley said:
I went ahead and ordered the Comp 270, and Melling 969 lifters. Also ordered a Cloyes timing set.
Click to expand...

Good Deal!

Somebody (Dave, 8ad-f85) let me know which valve springs to order up; and CaddyCrosley shoot me by private message your mailing address and particulars. I'll pay for those springs and have them sent to your address. Does that work for everybody?

I'm excited to see your college project move forward!! Somebody's has too! :D

Best,

d
 
Crosley,

That college sounds great!

You probably have more in the new stock springs than you'll have in a set of sbc springs. Ideally, I'd like 90-110 seat and 250-270 open for your needs. With stock heads, it will not go much over 5000.



Do you have a valve spring height mic? Any chance you have access to a set of stock sb chev retainers? [I threw a set away the other day!] If we knew how much room you had, we could better pic a spring. Even if you have to borrow a stock sbc retainer. Just put it in using the stock caddy valve locks, and we'll know what to so.

http://www.competitionproducts.com/...2100-Range/productinfo/PFM66902/#.WbdDyElK270

I might be able to get another set if you can't come up with any.
 
Dave your awesome

Bro. D You are too.
Yes they do come in a complete kit. I went with umbrella seals per Daves instructions.
Awesome news about your school. A shop to work on your engine and get a grade too. I would say it couldnt get better but then Bro,D steps up his game. How awesome is that?
PJ Happy Happy Happy
 
Darius said:
Good Deal!

Somebody (Dave, 8ad-f85) let me know which valve springs to order up; and CaddyCrosley shoot me by private message your mailing address and particulars. I'll pay for those springs and have them sent to your address. Does that work for everybody?

I'm excited to see your college project move forward!! Somebody's has too! :D

Best,

d
Click to expand...

You are the BEST, Darius! I can't tell you how much this means to me... If you ever need anything, let me know. I'm forever indebted to you man... Thank you thank you thank you! :D

dave brode said:
Crosley,

That college sounds great!

You probably have more in the new stock springs than you'll have in a set of sbc springs. Ideally, I'd like 90-110 seat and 250-270 open for your needs. With stock heads, it will not go much over 5000.



Do you have a valve spring height mic? Any chance you have access to a set of stock sb chev retainers? [I threw a set away the other day!] If we knew how much room you had, we could better pic a spring. Even if you have to borrow a stock sbc retainer. Just put it in using the stock caddy valve locks, and we'll know what to so.

http://www.competitionproducts.com/...2100-Range/productinfo/PFM66902/#.WbdDyElK270

I might be able to get another set if you can't come up with any.
Click to expand...

The program is pretty awesome! They teach you everything you need to know about how to restore a car here - bodywork, panel fabrication, paint, chassis, engine, drivetrain, trim & upholstery, etc. They do a two-week summer institute too, for anyone who wants to come and take a class.

I don't have a valve spring mic, no. I might be able to get ahold of a set of SBC retainers; there's enough of those engines around here that surely someone has an extra set.

So, just stick an SBC retainer on a Cad spring and assemble it back onto a head, and measure from the bottom of the spring to the top of the retainer? Think I can use a Vernier caliper for that? That'd get us pretty close...

PJ McCoy said:
Dave your awesome

Bro. D You are too.
Yes they do come in a complete kit. I went with umbrella seals per Daves instructions.
Awesome news about your school. A shop to work on your engine and get a grade too. I would say it couldnt get better but then Bro,D steps up his game. How awesome is that?
PJ Happy Happy Happy
Click to expand...

I agree! Y'all are the greatest!! :D
 
> So, just stick an SBC retainer on a Cad spring and assemble it back onto a head, and measure from the bottom of the spring to the top of the retainer?

From spring pad on head to underside of retainer, where the spring sits. We are measuring the spring installed height. . A caliper will work.

Note that the sb chev retainers will sit lower on the valve than the caddy retainers, which is good, since the chev springs are much shorter.
 
So, from the spring pad to the bottom of the retainer (retainer only, no spring cap like on the SBC I pulled it from - see second photo) is 1.890".
 

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